Front Forum: discussing The Great War 1914-18

Have been reading Nigel Steel and Peter Hart's book of this name. Was impressed but got confused between all the different ships-anyone know of an idiots guide to naval ships on line or in print? Thanks. Had problems working out the difference between 'cruisers' 'light cruisers' 'destroyers' and 'battleships' !

Hello Michael
Have you tried the National Maritime Museum for information on the Spithead Review in July 1914? I can only think of some of the posters I have seen - many of them more detailed than the following link. Regards, Dave

http://www.nmm.ac.uk/collections/displa ... =1#content

Hi Michael,
Best source for your needs is a copy of Jane's Fighting Ships 1914. Copies are available on abebooks from £14 - depending on the book condition you prefer. Similar deals on Amazon. Perhaps your local library has a copy of this or of the modern, and more analytical, Conway's All the World's Fighting Ships 1860 - 1905 and the next volume 1906 - 1921. Neither of these, Jane's or Conway's, are "idiots' guides" but they are very well laid out and will supply your Great War warship needs for a long time.
Start with Jane's - a classic.
With best wishes,
David

Thanks guys for all your suggestions, appreciated as ever.

Should mention that overal 'Jutland 1916 Death in the Grey Wastes' is fascinating and very moving.
I am surpised how under-played the Battle of Jutland seems to be; if Britain had lost this battle and the German navy were free to leave port then the outcome of the Great War may have been different.

Hi Michael,

Thanks for that! Sorry I've been away so couldn't answer before.

Battleship- three sorts:
Super dreadnoughts - the Queen ELizabeth class of 8 x !5" guns plus secondary armament of 6" guns
Dreadnought are 'all big gun; ussualy about 10 x 13.5" or 10 x !2" plus a secondary armament of 4.5" or 6" guns
Predreadnought are mixed armament older battleships usually something like 4 x 12" guns, some 9.2" guns and secondary armament 4" guns

Battlecruisers are hybrids: fast cruisers armed with a dreadnought style armement.
Heavy cruisers: an archaic bunch with no natural prey not heavily enough armoured or armed or fast eg Defence class
Light cruisers: fast reconnaisance/screening ships and commerce raiders. Light ships with little armour or weapons.

Destroyers: very fast reconnaisance/screening/anti-submarine/torpedo firing maids of all work.

Hope this helps. I'm a bit rusty on Jutland - doing Gallipoli at the moment!!!!

Cheers,

Pete

They hope to make a film with Sir Ben Kingsley in the part of Jellicoe! I hope it comes off!

Hi Pete and Michael,

RN Battleships
Super dreadnoughts began with the Orion class. This term recognises the upgrade in main armament to 13.5”.

Dreadnought/Super Dreadnought secondary armament was 12 pdr for Dreadnought herself and then 4” up to and including King George V class. Iron Duke class began the use of 6” (also the three foreign acquisitions: Erin, Canada and Agincourt).

Pre-dreadnoughts usually had 4-12” and 12-6”. Last two classes included some 9.2”. None had 4”.

Jane’s will show all of this and Siegfried Breyer, Battleships and Battlecruisers 1905 – 1970, amongst others, uses the term Super dreadnought for battleships from the Orion class onwards.

Hope this helps.

Regards,
David

Hi chums,

I agree about the prime and secondary armament of predreadnoughts - after the 12" guns I was guessing and still am but they also carried a range fo 12pdrs etc.

Where I would differ is that whatever people may have chosen to to call the Orion class in the past the superdreadnoughts are now acepted to have started with the Queen Elizabeths followed by the retrograde step of the Royal Sovereign class. No one now would think a 13.5" dreadnought was super and it would meean a substantial proportion of the Grand Fleet was 'super'! The German equivalents were the Baden/Bayern (not sure of names and too lazy too look!)

Cheers,

Tipsy Pete

Hi both,
It would be interesting to trace the origin of the term "super dreadnought". Editorially Jane's 1914 does not use the term, all British post-Dreadnought battleships being classified in that publication as "Dreadnoughts". However, in the advertisements section in the front of the 1914 edition there is an advert from "The Wallsend Slipway and Engineering Co. Ltd." which refers to the "Super Dreadnought" Orion.
With best wishes,
David

Hi Pete and Michael,
Intrigued by the origins of the term “super Dreadnought” I have done a little research on the Hansard website. Here I have found references which are much earlier than that in Jane’s 1914. Some MPs were using the term “super Dreadnought” in the House of Commons in 1909. The first recorded use is that of Mr Leo Money in a debate on 13 September 1909. The term continued in use in 1909 and 1910. The first reference I can find which connects the Orion class with the term is in a speech by Mr John Dillon on 16 March 1911. Mr Thomas Macnamara also made the connection in the same debate: “These are ships of the "Orion" type, the super-"Dreadnoughts.".

The leap from 12" guns to 13.5" guns was of as dramatic a nature as that from 13.5" to 15". The weight of shell went up, in the first case, from 850lbs to 1,250lbs (the next generation of 13.5", in the King George V and Iron Duke classes, threw a shell of 1,400lbs). In the second case the increase was from the Iron Duke's 1,400lbs shell to the Queen Elizabeth's 1,920lbs. Each increase in gun/shell size gave increased range and increased accuracy.

Another key development for the Royal Navy which was first apparent in the Orions was, of course, to have all main armament turrets on the centreline. The US Navy had done this with the South Carolina class (8 - 12") which was authorised in 1905 ( and, of course, there is always some debate about where this class fits in as far as Dreadnought development is concerned). The first German capital ship to complete with centreline turrets was the Konig class vessel Grosser Kurfurst in September 1914. Orion had completed in January 1912.

Clearly the Queen Elizabeth and the Revenge classes were more than "super Dreadnoughts". Baron Ashby St Ledgers, in the House of Lords on 5 August 1913, offered a new term to describe them: “If your Lordships consider the very great difference there is between a Dreadnought and a super-Dreadnought and a super-Dreadnought and the still newer class—I do not know what to call it—the hyper-super-Dreadnought if you like…”.

Hope this of interest!

With best wishes,
David

Responses appreciated, thanks again.

<<<<Battlecruisers are hybrids: fast cruisers armed with a dreadnought style armement.
Heavy cruisers: an archaic bunch with no natural prey not heavily enough armoured or armed or fast eg Defence class
Light cruisers: fast reconnaisance/screening ships and commerce raiders. Light ships with little armour or weapons.>>>

Were cuisers involved at Jutland ships that comandeered by the Royal Navy and later armed? Or were they all designed for a military purpose in mind? I am thinking particularly of Light Cruisers? And what is a 'commerce raider' ?
Thanks

Hi Michael,
Battlecruisers, Armoured Cruisers, and Light Cruisers were all warships.

The Battlecruiser idea emerged in parallel with Dreadnought, and the various types were built in association with the various upgrades of Dreadnought and Super Dreadnought. They were faster but more lightly armoured and armed than an equivalent Dreadnought. So, Beatty's flagship, Lion, was a battlecruiser whose design period ran parallel with that of Orion, the first Super Dreadnought. Lion had 8 - 13.5", 27 knots and 9" max belt. Orion had 10 - 13.5", 21 knots and 12" max belt. The battlecruisers came to be used as a fast, heavy scouting wing for the battlefleet, on both sides. Also, very useful for dealing with von Spee's cruisers at the Falklands in 1914.

Armoured cruisers were pre-dreadnought in concept and did not have the speed, armour or firepower to survive in the face of dreadnoughts or battlecruisers, as you will have seen from the fate of Defence, Black Prince and Warrior. In many ways they were the second-class battleships of the pre-dreadnought era. Armoured cruisers did sound work guarding the trade routes and watching the northern exits to the North Sea, and they hunted for the German commerce raiders and played their part in the sinking of the ships of von Spee's squadron in 1914 and 1915.

Light Cruisers were the scouting forces of the two fleets, but also had a role as Destroyer flotilla leaders and in the hunt for commerce raiders. Glasgow (2 - 6" and 10 - 4", 25 knots) was, famously, at both Coronel and the Falklands. You will have encountered a variety of more powerful (8 - 6") Town types in your reading about Jutland.

Surface commerce raiders, as employed by Germany in the Great War, existed in the form of both warships (Armoured Cruisers and Light Cruisers) and of vessels converted by the addition of guns - and the worst of that problem from the RN's point of view was mopped up in 1914 and 1915.

I am sure that you will find it helpful to find fleet lists for Jutland and to compare these with the ship descriptions and plans in Jane's 1914.

Hope this helps.

With best wishes,
David

Thank you once again David. Most helpful, and I am gradually working out the distinctions between the ships involved at Jutland thanks to people who have posted here. Appreciated

Hi Michael,
Only too happy to help.
With best wishes,
David

Hi good afternoon
could you help me please - I have just found a relative of mine a CHARLES BAYLISS b.1895/6 - Walsall. I have found a picture of him in naval uniform in the local newspaper archive as being reported lost serving on HMS Shark during the the battle of Jutland, his death confirmed June 1916. On looking at the Casualty lists I cant find him on any of the ships in the battle, yet I have seen the names of other Walsall seamen also reported as lost and their names on on their ships casualty lists.

I have downloaded a national archives naval service record of Charles Bayliss which says 1895 dob (ok) and Walsall (ok) but there is no mention of him ever being on SHARK, and he served on loads of other ships until 1925! Well, after having spent £3.50 and searching for ages for clues I am well gutted. Charles Bayliss is on the memorial wall in Walsall Town Hall! Surely this cant be an awful error? Are there any SHARK experts out there?

thanks for reading
mamafoxx

I know this thread finished over two years ago, but as a newbie to the forum it's all fresh to me. Also, I'm trying to establish my creds, a little bit.

I had the privilege of meeting Jutland Jellicoe's son, the second Earl, before his death a few years ago.I think he died in 2007. He lived in a tiny village called Tidcombe here in Wiltshire and had been a pioneer of "Special Forces" in WW2. I guess he must have been just about the last of the children of any of any four-star rank WW1 commander.
It was strange to sit with him, and think that he was the son of such a historical figure.